- Reaction score
- 654
Prob on 10a upwardsWould you fit them to all though, not just sockets?
Discuss AFDDs for single-socket circuits in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
Prob on 10a upwardsWould you fit them to all though, not just sockets?
There's a certain amount of chicken and egg here, until they end up in more installations we won't see if electrical fire statistics fall in general terms.
What could completely throw the stats is lockdown and the amount of time people spent working at home, and then people returning to workplaces, leading to a rise and fall in domestic fires.
I've had a quick look at some publicly available data:
Percentage of fires, non-fatal casualties and fire-related fatalities in accidental dwelling fires by selected sources of ignition, England; year ending March 2020
View attachment 100501
So electrical-appliance ignition source caused 13% of fires and accounted for 4% of fatalities.
Electrical distribution ignition sources are in fact killing more people.
(Space-heating source fatalities are really quite scary - people plugging in a fan heater in one room and not running the CH is going to be a real issue)
But maybe more relevant is this graph (same year)
Percentage of fires in accidental dwelling, fires by cause of fire, England; year ending March 2020
View attachment 100502
My conclusion for now - If 15% of fires are being caused by faulty appliances then maybe our advice should simply be that AFDDs are an attempt to bring down that number. The reality is that we won't know if it works for several years.
What could help would be some government funded TV adverts, like the original "Wake up - get a smoke alarm" campaign.
Some of the tight landlords won’t like paying 50 squid for an EICR and then 300/400 for a small update repair .Just now a quick search for the Fusebox brand has RCBO for around £15+VAT and AFDD for around £105+VAT, so around £110 extra parts cost per circuit to the customer (inc VAT), and a bit of margin for returns and call outs for odd trips, so say £150.
Not sure what is typical for a home these days, but it is looking like £300-450 extra if you have 2-3 RFC and if not much else (couple of lights, couple of fixed kitchen appliances), then it is probably adding 50% to a CU change?
Some folk won't have issues with the cost but I bet the majority of customers do! More so when it is a hard sell as to what they really offer in terms of improved safety. We see general fire stats quoted from time to time but so far I have not seen an analysis of what AFDD would have likely stopped versus stuff they would not have detected.
Sure if the were down to £20 versus £15 for RCBO then nobody is going to have a big issue with them, but just now it is going to be a problem for many.
Thanks for looking up those stats.So electrical-appliance ignition source caused 13% of fires and accounted for 4% of fatalities.
Electrical distribution ignition sources are in fact killing more people.
That image you show saying "cost should not be the major factor" is really condescending and misses the point completely. If we were talking something like £5 extra for AFDD then it might be reasonable, but if it is potentially the difference between £400 and £800 for a CU change (adjusted for your area's affluence) then it is going to make a lot of people thing twice and either not do it, or go to some Dodgy Dave character who offers it for 1/3 the price and makes a complete hash of it.Ha that’s a good one! Must be a manufacturers video
Unfortunately it is easy to say "cost should not be a major factor" but for some who are watching the pennies "significant cost is the major factor" in their budgeting for improvements to their propertyThat image you show saying "cost should not be the major factor" is really condescending and misses the point completely. If we were talking something like £5 extra for AFDD then it might be reasonable, but if it is potentially the difference between £400 and £800 for a CU change (adjusted for your area's affluence) then it is going to make a lot of people thing twice and either not do it, or go to some Dodgy Dave character who offers it for 1/3 the price and makes a complete hash of it.
MCB's and RCD'S / RCBO's have over a number of years developed a track record for majorly improving safety. With RCD's / RCBO's it is difficult to quantify the improvement because no one reports or tracks why or when they trip. So moving onto AFDD's who has found, analysed and reported the faults where an AFDD "may" offer a significant safety improvement to an installationThat is the reality, are you trying to make a few installations a fraction of a percent safer but at the cost of many other being left unsafe or even made more dangerous?
I have picked you quite a few jobs recently because I will do exactly that, mainly for older people who want a safer installation but don't want the trauma of major renovation work, I'm sure there are a lot who will call me out but while it is not to the letter of the regs it gives the homeowner some piece of mind that they will get a better indication that they have a faultWhile folks on this forum debate the choices of CU brand and design aspects like dual RCD versus RCBO, the reality is any of you could install any cheap CU and make an old or damaged installation far safer than ignoring it or leaving it to some untrained incompetent.
The problem is the "must" and "mandatory" group who force the issue without any hard facts or fault analysis to back up the safety value they offerAt least for now for most homes AFDD are options so offering budget and best-case can cover a range of client's ability to pay.
Some good points, but it's not just ability to pay, it's also individual choice and priorities. Concepts that are lost on too many in this age we live in.That image you show saying "cost should not be the major factor" is really condescending and misses the point completely. If we were talking something like £5 extra for AFDD then it might be reasonable, but if it is potentially the difference between £400 and £800 for a CU change (adjusted for your area's affluence) then it is going to make a lot of people thing twice and either not do it, or go to some Dodgy Dave character who offers it for 1/3 the price and makes a complete hash of it.
That is the reality, are you trying to make a few installations a fraction of a percent safer but at the cost of many other being left unsafe or even made more dangerous?
While folks on this forum debate the choices of CU brand and design aspects like dual RCD versus RCBO, the reality is any of you could install any cheap CU and make an old or damaged installation far safer than ignoring it or leaving it to some untrained incompetent.
At least for now for most homes AFDD are options so offering budget and best-case can cover a range of client's ability to pay.
So it's anyone's guess. In domestic where I work, people will weigh up all sorts of factors besides the economic - peace of mind vs. potential distress, sentimental value of the equipment that might be damaged, their own personal level of risk aversion etc. etc. And why shouldn't they?How long before we see real world figures that show that SPD's are actually doing their job, offering protection from a lightning strike is a bit of an unknown when you look at the strike risk for an area which depends a lot on the figures you use for the calc. A hospital I used to do a lot of work 20 - 25 years ago at took a strike one Sunday morning causing £450K - £500K of damage one of the hospital engineers was subsequently tasked with doing a risk assessment on future risk of a a strike the outcome of which was they could have a lightning strike once every 42 days or once every 4 years or once every 40 years or once every 400 years depending what factors were applied in the calculation, the cost estimate for the necessary surge protection was £500K - £600K given the most of the buildings were part of a workhouse dating back some 300 - 400 years and there were no records of a strike in the previous 50 - 60 years the decision was to not bother putting the protection in. So were are the historical figures to compare to the theoretical figures to actually assess the risk of needing an SPD on an installation and IMO the same goes for the AFDD how many faults have any of us out on the ground seen where an AFDD "may" have detected the fault an earlier stage than the existing protection devices
So it's anyone's guess. In domestic where I work, people will weigh up all sorts of factors besides the economic - peace of mind vs. potential distress, sentimental value of the equipment that might be damaged, their own personal level of risk aversion etc. etc. And why shouldn't they?
There are already AFFFDDDS hitting the seconds market at cheap prices
10amp wylex afdd/rcbo Only Installed For Two Weeks then Removed | eBay
10amp wylex affdd/rcbo Only Installed For Two Weeks then Removed.www.ebay.co.uk
Best guess would be nuisance tripping and went back to a normal McbMakes you wonder why they removed it. Nuisance tripping? Or maybe they have a genuine fault on their installation which will now never be found.
Best guess would be nuisance tripping and went back to a normal Mcb
Yes , but customer probably not happy having to keep walking to the consumer unit so sparks changed to an McbBut it could have been detecting a genuine fault on the circuit.
Yes , but customer probably not happy having to keep walking to the consumer unit so sparks changed to an Mcb
and the question is did the 'sparks' check the fault code to see which technology was causing the trip....or just rip it out regardless.Yes , but customer probably not happy having to keep walking to the consumer unit so sparks changed to an Mcb
I have seen 5 or 6 YouTube videos from the States where they literally yank out the AFCI /AFFDDDS if they get a nuisance trip problem and literally replace it with a Mcband the question is did the 'sparks' check the fault code to see which technology was causing the trip....or just rip it out regardless.
I have seen 5 or 6 YouTube videos from the States where they literally yank out the AFCI /AFFDDDS if they get a nuisance trip problem and literally replace it with a Mcb
I imagine we will adopt a much similar strategy
Who said anything about 'sign'Got to be brave to visit an installation with a tripping issue, remove a protective device and then sign your name on the paperwork to say you've done it.
But with the usual test equipment we have can we easily identify the early stages of an arc fault on a circuit and that could be the problem that we have to work withBut it could have been detecting a genuine fault on the circuit.
From what I gather the Americans / Canadians have been using AFCI devices in their homes since around 2012 , but due to nuisance tripping issues limit the use of AFCI to certain rooms onlyBut with the usual test equipment we have can we easily identify the early stages of an arc fault on a circuit and that could be the problem that we have to work with
The Hager AFDD's are reprogrammable via bluetooth so nuisance tripping can be filtered out but how do we know from the information gathered by the Hager data tool and the modified firmware provided by Hager that we are not inadvertantly desensitising the AFDD
The lack of information or any training on AFDD's is woeful and there seems to be a blind faith that they are the be all and end all of electrical safety when there is no external method of testing and confirming the functionality of these devices
For that price, they shouldn't have to be played with at all or have the means to be.But with the usual test equipment we have can we easily identify the early stages of an arc fault on a circuit and that could be the problem that we have to work with
The Hager AFDD's are reprogrammable via bluetooth so nuisance tripping can be filtered out but how do we know from the information gathered by the Hager data tool and the modified firmware provided by Hager that we are not inadvertantly desensitising the AFDD
The lack of information or any training on AFDD's is woeful and there seems to be a blind faith that they are the be all and end all of electrical safety when there is no external method of testing and confirming the functionality of these devices
A little observation - a high percentage of the 2nd hand AFDD's on ebay are Wylex. Coincidence? One to watch at least!
Ebay has long been a steady source of supply for new Crabtree & Wylex RCBOs, with AFDDs slowly creeping in. My suspicion has long been that many make their way there from over-ordering on jobs, rather than being returned to employers., but some sellers seem to have significant supplies. Who knows?
Have a look at the Hagar products...AFDD's with bluetooth capability to upgrade firmwareWhat happens when/if they develop a new and improved version? Will there be a way to update existing units (I suspect not).
In America you can actually but a double socket or as they call it a duplex receptacle which has built in AFCI capability.One issue I am concerned about with AFDDs is that they are effectively small computers.
That means firmware/software and with that comes issues of maintenance/errors/life expectancy due to heat/electronics.
What happens when/if they develop a new and improved version? Will there be a way to update existing units (I suspect not).
What will happen if a new appliance is released that just by coincidence produces a similar 'fingerprint' to the one looked for?
I know the idea is not new, particularly in the US, but I believe that our ones are rather different and therefore still fairly new and untested in wide usage (Are they widely used in other part of the 230V world?)
I doubt I will be fitting them anywhere other than I have to for some time to come, until the technology has proved its usefulness and the price has dropped significantly.
Surely if the belief is that a lot of the problems this will solve are within appliances, the better solution would be to include some sort of AFDD within every appliance. Wonder why the appliance makers and large companies who sit on the regs committee didn't consider that?
There can be a fire risk of some white goods having their power removed whilst part way through a program.One issue I am concerned about with AFDDs is that they are effectively small computers.
That means firmware/software and with that comes issues of maintenance/errors/life expectancy due to heat/electronics.
What happens when/if they develop a new and improved version? Will there be a way to update existing units (I suspect not).
What will happen if a new appliance is released that just by coincidence produces a similar 'fingerprint' to the one looked for?
I know the idea is not new, particularly in the US, but I believe that our ones are rather different and therefore still fairly new and untested in wide usage (Are they widely used in other part of the 230V world?)
I doubt I will be fitting them anywhere other than I have to for some time to come, until the technology has proved its usefulness and the price has dropped significantly.
Surely if the belief is that a lot of the problems this will solve are within appliances, the better solution would be to include some sort of AFDD within every appliance. Wonder why the appliance makers and large companies who sit on the regs committee didn't consider that?
This is one of the points I made in an earlier postOne issue I am concerned about with AFDDs is that they are effectively small computers.
That means firmware/software and with that comes issues of maintenance/errors/life expectancy due to heat/electronics.
I mentioned the programmable Hager AFDD's much earlier in this thread but having thought more about it I'm not sure about them, if you have a nuisance trip because an arc signature is detected then how do you evolve the programmed arc signature to eliminate the nuisance trip without missing a real arc fault but we also have the issue of is there an arc fault and how do we verify we haven't before going down the route of reprogramming the AFDDWhat happens when/if they develop a new and improved version? Will there be a way to update existing units (I suspect not).
That is anyones guess or is that for the PAT brigade to identify during inspectionsWhat will happen if a new appliance is released that just by coincidence produces a similar 'fingerprint' to the one looked for?
If all the reports from across the pond are to be believed the use of AFCI's is not that widespread with many taken out after installationI know the idea is not new, particularly in the US, but I believe that our ones are rather different and therefore still fairly new and untested in wide usage (Are they widely used in other part of the 230V world?)
As with a lot of stats in some circumstances it is difficult to prove, people will tell you the introduction of Part P saved lives but within 2 years the regs brought in RCD's on everything so what saved the lives, move on and how many lives has the RCD saved we will never know the true number as it trips it is reset and no one logs the fact it tripped or the circumstances why it tripped.I doubt I will be fitting them anywhere other than I have to for some time to come, until the technology has proved its usefulness and the price has dropped significantly.
And we come back around to cost and safety which is something that is lost on the appliance manufacturersSurely if the belief is that a lot of the problems this will solve are within appliances, the better solution would be to include some sort of AFDD within every appliance. Wonder why the appliance makers and large companies who sit on the regs committee didn't consider that?
The analytical team I managed until I retired from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service were (and are) responsible amongst other things for publishing comparable fire statistics for Scotland.My conclusion for now - If 15% of fires are being caused by faulty appliances then maybe our advice should simply be that AFDDs are an attempt to bring down that number. The reality is that we won't know if it works for several years.
Reply to AFDDs for single-socket circuits in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
We get it, advertisements are annoying!
Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.