EICR Unsatisfactory - New Property

[AjayS2367]

Hi,

I have a property that I was looking to rent out. Its 12 years old property so relatively new. I had a EICR done from a qualified electrican and it came out unsatisfactory which was a bit of a shock to us as we haven't done any work on electrics since new. Comments below:

Isolator (where present) is recommended for improvement. C3
Confirmation of indication that SPD is functional (651.4) is recommended for improvement. C3
For all socket-outlets of rating 32A or less, unless an exception is permitted (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2
For the supply of mobile equipment not exceeding 32A rating for use outdoors (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2
For cables concealed in walls at a depth of less than 50mm (522.6.202; 522.6.203) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required.C2
For cables concealed in walls/partitions containing metal parts regardless of depth (522.6.203) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

Additional Comments:
The electrical installation does not comply with BS7671, metal consumer unit partial rcd, no afdd, no spd

I have attached picture of the main consumer unit which is what the electrican was referring to. He said due to Glenfell Tower, these regulations apply from 2020 and consumer unit needs to be upgraded. Cost of replacement including VAT, Labour and materials: £550. Is the electrican correct? Also the charges seem high but I'm not sure what these go for.

 

[davesparks]

Isolator (where present) is recommended for improvement. C3

Ask them to specify what improvement they recommend.

Confirmation of indication that SPD is functional (651.4) is recommended for improvement. C3

Later in your post it says there is no SPD fitted, its impossible to confirm the function of something that doesn't exist so this should be N/A and not a C3.
A C3 recommendation to install an SPD would be fair though.

For all socket-outlets of rating 32A or less, unless an exception is permitted (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

Your photo clearly shows socket circuits protected by an RCD, so unless the cooker switch has a built in socket which isn't RCD protected then this seems to be a mistake.

For the supply of mobile equipment not exceeding 32A rating for use outdoors (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

Ask them to clarify what supply for mobile equipment they are referring to.

For cables concealed in walls at a depth of less than 50mm (522.6.202; 522.6.203) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required.C2

Normally this would be a C3, improvement recommended.


Is that everything from the report? If so he has missed some items which are apparent from the photo you posted.

Additional Comments:
The electrical installation does not comply with BS7671, metal consumer unit partial rcd, no afdd, no spd

I have attached picture of the main consumer unit which is what the electrican was referring to.

The lack of RCD protection could probably be solved by replacing the first four circuit breakers with RCBO's, but this would need to be confirmed by someone on-site.

Cost of replacement including VAT, Labour and materials: £550.

That's a bit cheap for a full CU replacement, especially considering it's a flush mounted unit which can be extra hassle.

 

[AjayS2367]

Ask them to specify what improvement they recommend.

Later in your post it says there is no SPD fitted, its impossible to confirm the function of something that doesn't exist so this should be N/A and not a C3.
A C3 recommendation to install an SPD would be fair though.

Your photo clearly shows socket circuits protected by an RCD, so unless the cooker switch has a built in socket which isn't RCD protected then this seems to be a mistake.

Ask them to clarify what supply for mobile equipment they are referring to.

Normally this would be a C3, improvement recommended.


Is that everything from the report? If so he has missed some items which are apparent from the photo you posted.






The lack of RCD protection could probably be solved by replacing the first four circuit breakers with RCBO's, but this would need to be confirmed by someone on-site.


That's a bit cheap for a full CU replacement, especially considering it's a flush mounted unit which can be extra hassle.

Thanks. Yes this is everything from the report, they did include test results which I have attached. So in your opinion the main consumer unit would not need replacing with new one?

 

[SJD]

I'm a bit curious about circuit #4, Smoke Alarms, which seems to be showing a 30mA RCD on the test sheet that doesn't exist, and the test results suggest it is a ring final circuit (for sockets)? Copy & paste errors?

Also, is this property really only 12 years old, as I'd not have expected that board with only an RCD for the sockets to have been installed in 2011?

 

[nicebutdim]

Is the property a flat and, if so, how many floors in the block?

 

[davesparks]

So in your opinion the main consumer unit would not need replacing with new one?

In my opinion the EICR contains some mistakes, items missing from the observations and odd test results.
And, in my opinion, it may not be necessary to replace the CU, but this would have to be confirmed on-site.

 

[westward10]

The Report is probably a load of old tosh but you have it nevertheless. The Grenfell business is nonsense and scaremongering.
Code 2 issues can all be rectified with Crabtree Starbreaker compact RCBOs.

 

[AjayS2367]

Is the property a flat and, if so, how many floors in the block?

Its a 2 bed house, 2 storeys.

 

[AjayS2367]

The Report is probably a load of old tosh but you have it nevertheless. The Grenfell business is nonsense and scaremongering.
Code 2 issues can all be rectified with Crabtree Starbreaker compact RCBOs.

I'm wondering whether it could be because some electricans would find it easier replacing the whole board and more dearer of course then installing starbreakers which as you say would resolve the issues.

 

[James]

Crabtree Starbreaker 61/B13230 32A Type B Long RCBO 230V 30mA Type A

-Single module, RCBO-32A B curve (MCB), 30mA Type A (RCD)-Single pole-Plug in Long RCBO IP20, 50Hz, Ambient temperature when operating, -5 - 40°C, 74mm built in depth IEC 61009-1

www.sndelectrical.co.uk

 

[westward10]

Crabtree Starbreaker 61/B13230 32A Type B Long RCBO 230V 30mA Type A

-Single module, RCBO-32A B curve (MCB), 30mA Type A (RCD)-Single pole-Plug in Long RCBO IP20, 50Hz, Ambient temperature when operating, -5 - 40°C, 74mm built in depth IEC 61009-1

www.sndelectrical.co.uk

Compact versions are better for that board due to it's height.

Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO

Quicker and easier to install

www.cef.co.uk

 

[AjayS2367]

Compact versions are better for that board due to it's height.

Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO

Quicker and easier to install

www.cef.co.uk

Many thanks for this.

I have spoken to the electrican this morning to ask for further clarification on the reporting and he advised that it is down to his own professional judgement when it comes to choosing coding based on his observation and said he could not comment any further on justification over fault codes. I then asked him can he replace the relevant circuit breakers with Crabtree Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO, he advised that is not possible because they are not reliable and will cause problems in the future and said the whole MCU will need to be upgraded as highlighted in his EICR he said. I am not sure whether he is just trying to make money by creating work that does not need doing or whether there is any truth in what he is saying. He also said the cost of replacing the compact RCBO's would still be near enough the cost of replacing the whole board itself.

​

 

[westward10]

Many thanks for this.

I have spoken to the electrican this morning to ask for further clarification on the reporting and he advised that it is down to his own professional judgement when it comes to choosing coding based on his observation and said he could not comment any further on justification over fault codes. I then asked him can he replace the relevant circuit breakers with Crabtree Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO, he advised that is not possible because they are not reliable and will cause problems in the future and said the whole MCU will need to be upgraded as highlighted in his EICR he said. I am not sure whether he is just trying to make money by creating work that does not need doing or whether there is any truth in what he is saying. He also said the cost of replacing the compact RCBO's would still be near enough the cost of replacing the whole board itself.

​

That is complete nonsense those RCBOs will directly fit that consumer unit. The fact your consumer unit is metal is not Coded in the Report from what I can see, it was a comment.

 

[LukeD]

The Report is probably a load of old tosh but you have it nevertheless. The Grenfell business is nonsense and scaremongering.
Code 2 issues can all be rectified with Crabtree Starbreaker compact RCBOs.

Are these good? never used them, but could on a job coming up where i just need a single 32amp

 

[AjayS2367]

That is complete nonsense those RCBOs will directly fit that consumer unit. The fact your consumer unit is metal is not Coded in the Report from what I can see, it was a comment.

No he didn't have any concerns about fitting them in, he said they will cause issues in the long run as they are not reliable and it wouldn't get through a EICR - Satisfactory.

 

[littlespark]

He is right in saying it’s his own professional judgement, and he’s maybe seen other things not noted that would lead to such a strict decision, but as far as we can see, he’s looking for extra work.

Wether a new RCBO is “reliable” or not…. If fitting them gets the EICR to satisfactory in his judgement, he has no reason not to fit them.
(And the reason for fitting them in the first place is a little shaky)

 

[nicebutdim]

No he didn't have any concerns about fitting them in, he said they will cause issues in the long run as they are not reliable and it wouldn't get through a EICR - Satisfactory.

Crabtree is a reputable brand and not known for unreliable protective devices.

If a new board will be cheaper than a few new RCBOs, I'd be asking what brand the proposed new board would be.

Very few brands have provided the luxury of backward compatibility of breakers and I'd be loathe to give up that convenience for an alternative which may be difficult to source parts for within a few years.

While your electrician is indeed free you exercise his judgment, you're still entitled to an explanation of the problems that he believes warrant these codes.

 

[James]

Time to get some alternative quotes for the remedial work.
hope you find a local electrician that is sensible in there approach

 

[rewireIT]

In my opinion the EICR contains some mistakes, items missing from the observations and odd test results.
And, in my opinion, it may not be necessary to replace the CU, but this would have to be confirmed on-site.

What obs has he missed from the pic of the consumer unit?

 

[davesparks]

What obs has he missed from the pic of the consumer unit?

RCD protection for circuits serving a room containing a bath or shower.

RCD protection for lighting circuits in a domestic installation.

 

[AjayS2367]

That is complete nonsense those RCBOs will directly fit that consumer unit. The fact your consumer unit is metal is not Coded in the Report from what I can see, it was a comment.

Just to update, I have now had two different electricans come in for another opinion. Both said that RCBO's would not fit or work with my main consumer unit. One of them said its because my MCU is plastic and not metal. You can't fit RCBO's in plastic main consumer units, only complete metal ones he said. The other electrican just said you can't fit RCBOs in this unit. Both said it would not pass EICR unless I change to new unit. Both recommended BG (British General) MCU.

 

[rewireIT]

Get the model number of your current board and breakers and ring a wholesalers. I bet you'll find rcbos that fit

 

[timhoward]

Both recommended BG (British General) MCU.

That says it all really. Screwfix special. Far lower quality than what you have in my opinion.

Both said it would not pass EICR unless I change to new unit

The EICR is already done. Their job is to address the C2 findings and provide RCD protection as the report required.
You do not need a "passed EICR", you need the report you already have and evidence the issues are resolved.

I'd like to believe there is a sensible honest and pragmatic electrician somewhere in London, and while I understand it must be getting frustrating I'd suggest you keep looking.

Aside from anything else, changing that board is going to create decorative mayhem as it's flush mounted.

Get the model number of your current board and breakers and ring a wholesalers. I bet you'll find rcbos that fit

There are RCBOs that fit.

 

[AjayS2367]

That says it all really. Screwfix special. Far lower quality than what you have in my opinion.


The EICR is already done. Their job is to address the C2 findings and provide RCD protection as the report required.
You do not need a "passed EICR", you need the report you already have and evidence the issues are resolved.

I'd like to believe there is a sensible honest and pragmatic electrician somewhere in London, and while I understand it must be getting frustrating I'd suggest you keep looking.

Aside from anything else, changing that board is going to create decorative mayhem as it's flush mounted.

There are RCBOs that fit.

Thanks for the reply. But would fitting 4 x RCBO's resolve the C2's that were highlighted in my EICR? Assuming there are RCBO's out there for my unit. I know some have said it is available on here and have been recommended here which differs to what electricans here have told me that it won't work in plastic units.

How would I fit the model number without opening up the whole unit which is screwed in which only a qualified electrican can do? I can't find any printed words on the outside of the unit other than Crabtree Starbreaker.

 

[timhoward]

Thanks for the reply. But would fitting 4 x RCBO's resolve the C2's that were highlighted in my EICR?

Simple answer - yes. @davesparks explains in detail in post #2.
The four C2's are saying that RCD protection is required for a variety of reasons. (Some of them are in fact highly questionable and likely utter rubbish)
If every circuit has RCD protection then that is the remedials dealt with.

 

[AjayS2367]

Simple answer - yes. @davesparks explains in detail in post #2.
The four C2's are saying that RCD protection is required for a variety of reasons. (Some of them are in fact highly questionable and likely utter rubbish)
If every circuit has RCD protection then that is the remedials dealt with.

Sure but what one of the electricans said to me is its one thing finding one that may fit but RCBOs are absolute pain to install and work with due to high risk of tripping and they simply wouldn't touch RCBOs because they have too many issues down the line.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Get another electrician, they are just trying to make it easier for themselves.

 

[timhoward]

Sure but what one of the electricans said to me is its one thing finding one that may fit but RCBOs are absolute pain to install and work with due to high risk of tripping and they simply wouldn't touch RCBOs because they have too many issues down the line.

Sorry. They are talking complete rubbish.
What they mean is that it's a higher value job with more profit to change the entire board, and they don't care what is best for you financially, your decorations, or your installation.

RCBOs actually lower the risk of tripping! The regs themselves recommend their use to help limit unwanted tripping.

 

[littlespark]

This is awful that so called professional electricians can treat customers like that.

I bet every sparks in the area confer with each other on what to say to people.


I was always told a good EICR inspector needs knowledge, understanding and experience…..
A fresh out-the-college 22 year old, for example, does not have the third part there.

 

[DPG]

Sure but what one of the electricans said to me is its one thing finding one that may fit but RCBOs are absolute pain to install and work with due to high risk of tripping and they simply wouldn't touch RCBOs because they have too many issues down the line.

Absolute con artist unfortunately.