FP Cable Is Not Always Suitable

[tazz]

Seems to be a lot of confusion, that FP cable is the be all, and end all of fire resistant cable. And is only suitable for fire alarms. So let me put some points across.
FP is often used for fire alarms, emergency lighting, PA systems, Disabled refuge, control switching, sprinkler control, UPS or in any installation upto 300v, where a designer may have reason to install.
FP comes in singes FP100, 2, 3, 4 or multi core FP200.....Has two versions Standard & Enhanced.
Although FP is quick and easy to install, it has limitations, and these limitations are crucial in any design.
Due to its making, FP200 has no internal seal. A can easily pass gas and water, by compilary down its internal structure.
So chemical plants, server rooms or areas of integrity, need to be thought out.
Pyro/Micc after being around for decades, is still the ideal way to over come design problems, such a integrity...and unlike FP, it is actual classed and enhanced cable. The fire time restraints to failure are also different between FP & pyro...FP has a fire rating of 20-30 minutes, where Pyro has outlasted some intense fires.
So as with any cable, it has its places and its usage, but only with taught and design.
This video you may find interesting, Worth watching the testing procedures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ZAYFSwInk

 

[cornishboy]

Do you work for Pyrotenax for nay reason?, actually I think Pyro is great did loads when I was an apprentice in boiler houses, fuel stations it was a work of art if installed correctly and never ages, LSO I remember installing Pyro for bell circuits on fire alarms with twin and earth being used for all call points which is never done these days, I think people fell out of love with pyro as the copper prices ran sky high and also you had to buy glands and opts by the 10 pack making it expensive for a single job.
We used to do a lot of work for Woolworths It was their specified cable to be always used for shop work, I think National Trust still specify it or all work within grade 2 listed building and bare covered too.As pyro has now ben taken out the AM2 exam shortly there will be no one who is skilled enough to do it now

 

[tazz]

Have had a few questions about FP and Micc, so thought a quick post would help, with the video, showing testing.....As you pointed out, certain projects, will request micc instead of FP. for reasons of gas & water i stated earlier. Its a shame to take this skill out of the AM2, as until a better cable is developed, micc will be chosen in certain builds....but as i stated , each cable has its use in different areas.

 

[djw]

As pyro has now ben taken out the AM2 exam shortly there will be no one who is skilled enough to do it now

Is it taught at college at all then?

 

[tazz]

I would like to thing so, as it is a handy skill to learn....but im not upto date on what courses teach Pyro/micc

 

[djw]

I would like to thing so

I'd like to think so too, I know of one large site which has miles of MI installed, they could be well knackered if the skill is lost...

 

[shanky887614]

Have had a few questions about FP and Micc, so thought a quick post would help, with the video, showing testing.....As you pointed out, certain projects, will request micc instead of FP. for reasons of gas & water i stated earlier. Its a shame to take this skill out of the AM2, as until a better cable is developed, micc will be chosen in certain builds....but as i stated , each cable has its use in different areas.

ive got a set of joistrippers and a size F potting tool.

any chance you guys have a couple meters of micc and some pots for it lying around? I would like to get some to have a go before I use it at work

 

[shanky887614]

I'd like to think so too, I know of one large site which has miles of MI installed, they could be well knackered if the skill is lost...

when I was at national grid last year in warrick they were installing a lot of micc for there fire alarm in the refurb

 

[Guest77]

ive got a set of joistrippers and a size F potting tool.

any chance you guys have a couple meters of micc and some pots for it lying around? I would like to get some to have a go before I use it at work

I have 50 mtrs or maybe even 60 mtrs of 2L1.5 2 core with orange sheath for sale if you want some.

 

[trev]

ive got a set of joistrippers and a size F potting tool.

any chance you guys have a couple meters of micc and some pots for it lying around? I would like to get some to have a go before I use it at work

I might be able to get a few short scrap ends mate, I'll get back to you later in the week

 

[7029 dave]

I know nothing of FP200, so can't comment, but MICC was all I ever used.

 

[shanky887614]

I have 50 mtrs or maybe even 60 mtrs of 2L1.5 2 core with orange sheath for sale if you want some.

I picked up some 2L1.5 pots already, ill send a pm

thanks for the offer mdj

 

[Darkwood]

Seems to be a lot of confusion, that FP cable is the be all, and end all of fire resistant cable. And is only suitable for fire alarms. So let me put some points across.
FP is often used for fire alarms, emergency lighting, PA systems, Disabled refuge, control switching, sprinkler control, UPS or in any installation upto 300v, where a designer may have reason to install.
FP comes in singes FP100, 2, 3, 4 or multi core FP200.....Has two versions Standard & Enhanced.
Although FP is quick and easy to install, it has limitations, and these limitations are crucial in any design.
Due to its making, FP200 has no internal seal. A can easily pass gas and water, by compilary down its internal structure.
So chemical plants, server rooms or areas of integrity, need to be thought out.
Pyro/Micc after being around for decades, is still the ideal way to over come design problems, such a integrity...and unlike FP, it is actual classed and enhanced cable. The fire time restraints to failure are also different between FP & pyro...FP has a fire rating of 20-30 minutes, where Pyro has outlasted some intense fires.
So as with any cable, it has its places and its usage, but only with taught and design.
This video you may find interesting, Worth watching the testing procedures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ZAYFSwInk

Gonna nickname our lass FP200 from now on

 

[Marvo]

I have 50 mtrs or maybe even 60 mtrs of 2L1.5 2 core with orange sheath for sale if you want some.

Surely not.....it can't be......can it?

 

[shanky887614]

what would this tool be called from a wholesaler? Its size f (didn't realise the size was 16mm pots)

im after a 20mm crimping pliers but cant find there name I know there made by bicc pyrotenax though

 

[Guest77]

what would this tool be called from a wholesaler? Its size f (didn't realise the size was 16mm pots)

im after a 20mm crimping pliers but cant find there name I know there made by bicc pyrotenax though

When I sort out your pyro today I will see if I have a pot crimper I can put in the box, can't promise but it may happen :willy_nilly:

 

[shanky887614]

When I sort out your pyro today I will see if I have a pot crimper I can put in the box, can't promise but it may happen :willy_nilly:

thank you but don't worry about it neweys stock the pot crimpers,

 

[LeeH]

I've only made an end of twice. Once at college and once in my AM2.

If I was asked to make one off tomorrow I'd probably cock it up.

 

[varilite]

Fp 200 good substitute for t&e much nicer to work with. I'd wire houses with it if it wasn't so expensive

 

[fuel]

As pyro has now ben taken out the AM2 exam shortly there will be no one who is skilled enough to do it now

Is it taught at college at all then?

Had to make off a few practice ends and make off two for the unit 305 practical exam.

 

[shanky887614]

Had to make off a few practice ends and make off two for the unit 305 practical exam.

that was your colleges choice, I didnt touch it at all in mine. was shown a pic of it and shown some compound and that was about it.

ill be making some ends of myself quite soon and later on might have to at work so it will be good practice

 

[fuel]

Had to make off a few practice ends and make off two for the unit 305 practical exam.

that was your colleges choice, I didnt touch it at all in mine. was shown a pic of it and shown some compound and that was about it.

ill be making some ends of myself quite soon and later on might have to at work so it will be good practice

For the 305 practical, We were given a diagram to wire up using different sorts of cables, so for example from the board to a 1 way light switch in twin, and then from the board to fused spur in pyro, board to socket in SY flex etc. The cables were set buy City and Guilds. Dont have the sheet anymore or i'd post a photo. Had to do it for the exam.

 

[shanky887614]

For the 305 practical, We were given a diagram to wire up using different sorts of cables, so for example from the board to a 1 way light switch in twin, and then from the board to fused spur in pyro, board to socket in SY flex etc. The cables were set buy City and Guilds. Dont have the sheet anymore or i'd post a photo. Had to do it for the exam.

how long ago was this?

when I did my level 3 in college there was 0 install. only thing we did was testing.

used twin and a little bit of singles. swa twice that was in level 2

2330 I meant.

sorry didnt read tye pyro bit.

colleges dont usually even have any onsite now.

spoke to cef today about some crimping pliers and they were telling me the last pair he sold was over 10 years ago.

 

[dragon-av]

We have a pyro "bucket" at work (all the odds and sods from the bottom of peoples tool boxes), its been used once in 2 years where we had to joint into an existing Pyro install and extend in FP200. I had to get one of the time served guys to do it, he hadn't done one for 15 years...... still used in chemical plants and other high risk industries....

 

[shanky887614]

We have a pyro "bucket" at work (all the odds and sods from the bottom of peoples tool boxes), its been used once in 2 years where we had to joint into an existing Pyro install and extend in FP200. I had to get one of the time served guys to do it, he hadn't done one for 15 years...... still used in chemical plants and other high risk industries....

cef could only get normal corkscrew type for 35+vat.

neweys advertise same one for 24inc +vat on site

sorry but for what it is £42 takes the biscuit.

 

[Simonslimline]

For the 305 practical, We were given a diagram to wire up using different sorts of cables, so for example from the board to a 1 way light switch in twin, and then from the board to fused spur in pyro, board to socket in SY flex etc. The cables were set buy City and Guilds. Dont have the sheet anymore or i'd post a photo. Had to do it for the exam.

Same at my college. We had to use Pyro, swa, FP200, SY, Twin, Cat5, singles, and various different flex.

I think it is important to be shown how to terminate pyro. Every apprentice should be taught imo.

 

[dragon-av]

Same at my college. We had to use Pyro, swa, FP200, SY, Twin, Cat5, singles, and various different flex.

I think it is important to be shown how to terminate pyro. Every apprentice should be taught imo.

Cat5 really? Krones or plugs?

 

[davesparks]

We have a pyro "bucket" at work (all the odds and sods from the bottom of peoples tool boxes), its been used once in 2 years where we had to joint into an existing Pyro install and extend in FP200. I had to get one of the time served guys to do it, he hadn't done one for 15 years...... still used in chemical plants and other high risk industries....

Why would you extend pyro with fp200? Seems a bit daft to me.

I was taught that you should always extend cables/wiring systems with the same or better cable, not to extend them with a lesser system.
For example you extend steel conduit with steel conduit or you extend MI with MI.

 

[Simonslimline]

Cat5 really? Krones or plugs?

Just made off in to a data point witha punch tool.

 

[DRG]

Why would you extend pyro with fp200? Seems a bit daft to me.

I was taught that you should always extend cables/wiring systems with the same or better cable, not to extend them with a lesser system.
For example you extend steel conduit with steel conduit or you extend MI with MI.

I was taught the same way mate as many others will as its good practice. I had a conversation with a guy from Cormeton once who was commissioning a fire alarm system that had been extended from pyro to fp and he said ut can cause problems. Cant remember the reason he gave I think it was on an adressable system so may have been something to do with the systems knows which way accessories or set at or something along those lines. (Im not mega clued up on the technical side of fire alarms)

 

[Guest111]

The last lad I trained asked about pyro at college and was told they didn't do it any more as it was a bit of a black art eventually I can see it being a specialised thing if something isn't done to improve training at college,lets be honest it's still widely used in certain areas so should still be taught as part of normal trade training.

 

[davesparks]

I was taught the same way mate as many others will as its good practice. I had a conversation with a guy from Cormeton once who was commissioning a fire alarm system that had been extended from pyro to fp and he said ut can cause problems. Cant remember the reason he gave I think it was on an adressable system so may have been something to do with the systems knows which way accessories or set at or something along those lines. (Im not mega clued up on the technical side of fire alarms)

That sounds like a bit of old bull to get around him being unable or too lazy to do it properly.
It's easy enough to get the polarity right on a bit of pyro, and I'm sure a earthed solid copper sheath is better than a bit of tin foil wrapped around the cores as far as screening goes.

 

[DRG]

You're probably right mate

 

[shanky887614]

first attempt at 2l1.5 using double pliers method

lovely stuff to work with, I don't know why some people really don't like it

 

[davesparks]

How did you get the seal crimped into the pot without stripping a bit more sheath back to get the crimped round it?
It may be an optical illusion but it doesn't look like you've stripped enough sheath back to me

 

[shanky887614]

How did you get the seal crimped into the pot without stripping a bit more sheath back to get the crimped round it?
It may be an optical illusion but it doesn't look like you've stripped enough sheath back to me

yup your right, I havent actually threaded it as far as I should have.

its caught a little bit of thread but I didnt realise how far it was supposed to go till I just did more research on youtube.

 

[Guest77]

yup your right, I havent actually threaded it as far as I should have.

its caught a little bit of thread but I didnt realise how far it was supposed to go till I just did more research on youtube.

What dave means is you need to strip back more orange sheath so you can slide the gland back, you need to crimp the cap into the pot firmly, you can't do that with the gland in the way fella.

 

[shanky887614]

What dave means is you need to strip back more orange sheath so you can slide the gland back, you need to crimp the cap into the pot firmly, you can't do that with the gland in the way fella.

true, to be honest Its a bodge at home till I get hold of a crimper.

I crimped it into the pot by putting one side of the grips on the very bottom on the gland and the other side on the top of the pot.

I would like to have used a proper crimper but I don't have access to one at the moment

 

[Guest77]

true, to be honest Its a bodge at home till I get hold of a crimper.

I crimped it into the pot by putting one side of the grips on the very bottom on the gland and the other side on the top of the pot.

I would like to have used a proper crimper but I don't have access to one at the moment

aye I know pal, bear with me.

 

[davesparks]

Yeah sorry, I meant the orange over sheath not the copper sheath, I should have made myself clear.

 

[trev]

first attempt at 2l1.5 using double pliers method

lovely stuff to work with, I don't know why some people really don't like it

It's not so much that they don't like it, more that they're scared of it. I agree, I think it's fantastic stuff.

 

[shanky887614]

Yeah sorry, I meant the orange over sheath not the copper sheath, I should have made myself clear.

I used a pair of tiny grips I have to screw the pot on but I didnt screw it in fully.

that answer your question?

 

[trev]

Not bad for a first attempt, I've seen a lot worse. Did you IR it?

 

[Guest77]

when you screw the pot on you only want the bare cable sheath to just be level with the top of the threads inside the pot, I always pull the cores with a pair of pliers before adding compound and blow out the powder so the pot is clean and dust free. When you get a crimper which hopefully will be early next week you need to ensure the gland slides back away from the pot so you can really get arount the whole pot to crimp it up tight, apart from a couple of basic mistakes your attempt looks good, it is straight and the cores look in good condition, practice makes perfect :rockon:

 

[shanky887614]

when you screw the pot on you only want the bare cable sheath to just be level with the top of the threads inside the pot, I always pull the cores with a pair of pliers before adding compound and blow out the powder so the pot is clean and dust free. When you get a crimper which hopefully will be early next week you need to ensure the gland slides back away from the pot so you can really get arount the whole pot to crimp it up tight, apart from a couple of basic mistakes your attempt looks good, it is straight and the cores look in good condition, practice makes perfect :rockon:

attempt 2 so far

ill leave the compound off till I get a potting tool.

im going to take into work in the morning then ill ir it. (im at home and dont have an ir tester)

 

[davesparks]

Looks good from here, cable sheath just half a gnats whisker inside the pot and the earth tail in the right position relative to the cores.

Grab the end of the cores with a pair of pliers and give them a good hard tug to straighten then out, it'll make sliding the seal on a tad easier.

 

[shanky887614]

Looks good from here, cable sheath just half a gnats whisker inside the pot and the earth tail in the right position relative to the cores.

Grab the end of the cores with a pair of pliers and give them a good hard tug to straighten then out, it'll make sliding the seal on a tad easier.

didnt realise it was so ****ed

afterall ****ed is the new straight, feel free to call me neville XD

 

[Guest77]

Agree with dave, a good tug with pliers on the 2 cores and it is looking good

 

[djw]

Not bad for a first attempt, I've seen a lot worse. Did you IR it?

You probably saw one of my first attempts Trev!! Got a right ear-bashing for it... no shroud, pot not straight and screwed on to far...

btw - I've a spare one of these if MDJ can't set you up...

Edit - didn't realize the pic was that big, i'ts only for 20mm pots

 

[trev]

As an apprentice I was given scrap ends to make off, After a while and some intense inspections of my efforts I was allowed to use potting compound. The first end I made off that actually went into service made me a very proud puppy spark.
Afaik it's still there to this day.