Idiotic Schemes and members

[markythesparky]

Went to a job the other day and found that an NICEIC approved domestic installer employed by a conservatory company had installed a small CU and run a 4mm 3
Core SWA to run some sockets and lighting in the conservatory.

On closer inspection he’d split the tails with Henley block to feed to new CU. He’d then installed a flex gland for the SWA (no popper gland) but worst of all, he’d installed a BS61008 32a 30ma RCD for protection. No overcurrent protection at all!

We decided to inform the house owner. She said she’d get on to the conservatory company. She checked the certificate and found that he’d left the overcurrent box blank.

After she’d contacted the conservatory company, I get a call today from the house owner saying that the ‘sparks’ had shown up unannounced and was very aggressive. He didn’t want to talk to me in the phone. She said he went to something in the conservatory and announced, ‘look, it is earthed!’ She proceeded to tell him that the problem was with the breaker and what was on the certificate. When he was shown the certificate (which was about 4 years old) he snatched it and filled in the blank box with the numbers ‘61008’.

Now tell me, why oh why oh why are the NICEIC letting people in like this? When we were admitted into the NIC, I for one was so proud to be a member. Since the advent of the other schemes, this trade has gone to sh*t! I feel so sorry for this lady.

It seems that the NIC maybe more interested in revenue than having fully qualified professional electricians as members and could it be that this is because I all the other schemes are too!?

You’d think they’d all know by now that price based competition lowers standards whereas service based competition raises standards!

 

[TJ Anderson]

Have you got some photos.

How had he made off the other end of the SWA?

I assume there is reduced cable CSA in conservatory. Is it fused down again?

 

[TJ Anderson]

It's crazy that he recognised he did not have overcurrent protection and still thought it ok. Lol

 

[SparkyChick]

Maybe he thinks the 32A rated RCD provides over current protection because it's got 32A on it?? Why else would it have 32A on it if it's not that???

Regardless, sounds like a right numpty who shouldn't be trading.

 

[Octopus]

Maybe he thinks the 32A rated RCD provides over current protection because it's got 32A on it?? Why else would it have 32A on it if it's not that???

Regardless, sounds like a right numpty who shouldn't be trading.

No may be about it


This is a common mistake ....

 

[TJ Anderson]

Maybe he thinks the 32A rated RCD provides over current protection because it's got 32A on it??

Yeah....I've seen that few times on Electric Shower circuits

 

[SparkyChick]

I'm speechless.... I've got no words... well.. none that I can say publicly without moderating my own post

 

[Andy78]

Why do you think that other schemes are to blame for the poor standards found within the ranks of the NICEIC domestic installer scheme ?
For years and years the NICEIC let in applicants with minimal qualifications, the lowest of all schemes. They actively collude with Electrical Trainee training centres to churn through revenue supplying applicants.

Any cheapening of the reputation the NICEIC once had is their own making.

Give them a call about the conduct of this particular installer and see how much of a ---- they give.

 

[PEG]

I did a recent post,where i was called to give an opinion on a recently fitted domestic CU. That too,was installed by a member of a well known scheme...can't say which one,but it's the same one...

Obviously no testing done previous to ripping original one out,must have realised issue too late,and hey presto...all lights and upstairs sockets are on a 6A MCB...which the hoover sorts out 4 times out of 5.

Feedback from stunt-fitter,was "yeah,can be a problem,them old properties..."

Is it the worst i've seen? ... Not by a long chalk...

 

[ipf]

Why do you think that other schemes are to blame for the poor standards found within the ranks of the NICEIC domestic installer scheme ?
For years and years the NICEIC let in applicants with minimal qualifications, the lowest of all schemes. They actively collude with Electrical Trainee training centres to churn through revenue supplying applicants.

Any cheapening of the reputation the NICEIC once had is their own making.

Give them a call about the conduct of this particular installer and see how much of a **** they give.

I don't think he's saying the other schemes are to blame. He seems to be castigating them.
This all came into being with the government instigated 'changing of the goalposts'.
Your 'years and years' then began.
As a result, the schemes came along, creating today's farcical, money making, disgrace.
'NICEIC approved domestic installer', throws me a bit, though.

 

[Baddegg]

Not sure but I think the approved bit means they can work on commercial properties also,at an extra cost obviously

 

[Pete999]

Went to a job the other day and found that an NICEIC approved domestic installer employed by a conservatory company had installed a small CU and run a 4mm 3
Core SWA to run some sockets and lighting in the conservatory.

On closer inspection he’d split the tails with Henley block to feed to new CU. He’d then installed a flex gland for the SWA (no popper gland) but worst of all, he’d installed a BS61008 32a 30ma RCD for protection. No overcurrent protection at all!

We decided to inform the house owner. She said she’d get on to the conservatory company. She checked the certificate and found that he’d left the overcurrent box blank.

After she’d contacted the conservatory company, I get a call today from the house owner saying that the ‘sparks’ had shown up unannounced and was very aggressive. He didn’t want to talk to me in the phone. She said he went to something in the conservatory and announced, ‘look, it is earthed!’ She proceeded to tell him that the problem was with the breaker and what was on the certificate. When he was shown the certificate (which was about 4 years old) he snatched it and filled in the blank box with the numbers ‘61008’.

Now tell me, why oh why oh why are the NICEIC letting people in like this? When we were admitted into the NIC, I for one was so proud to be a member. Since the advent of the other schemes, this trade has gone to sh*t! I feel so sorry for this lady.

It seems that the NIC maybe more interested in revenue than having fully qualified professional electricians as members and could it be that this is because I all the other schemes are too!?

You’d think they’d all know by now that price based competition lowers standards whereas service based competition raises standards!

One word Marky Money

Went to a job the other day and found that an NICEIC approved domestic installer employed by a conservatory company had installed a small CU and run a 4mm 3
Core SWA to run some sockets and lighting in the conservatory.

On closer inspection he’d split the tails with Henley block to feed to new CU. He’d then installed a flex gland for the SWA (no popper gland) but worst of all, he’d installed a BS61008 32a 30ma RCD for protection. No overcurrent protection at all!

We decided to inform the house owner. She said she’d get on to the conservatory company. She checked the certificate and found that he’d left the overcurrent box blank.

After she’d contacted the conservatory company, I get a call today from the house owner saying that the ‘sparks’ had shown up unannounced and was very aggressive. He didn’t want to talk to me in the phone. She said he went to something in the conservatory and announced, ‘look, it is earthed!’ She proceeded to tell him that the problem was with the breaker and what was on the certificate. When he was shown the certificate (which was about 4 years old) he snatched it and filled in the blank box with the numbers ‘61008’.

Now tell me, why oh why oh why are the NICEIC letting people in like this? When we were admitted into the NIC, I for one was so proud to be a member. Since the advent of the other schemes, this trade has gone to sh*t! I feel so sorry for this lady.

It seems that the NIC maybe more interested in revenue than having fully qualified professional electricians as members and could it be that this is because I all the other schemes are too!?

You’d think they’d all know by now that price based competition lowers standards whereas service based competition raises standards!

One word Marky (MONEY)

 

[Octopus]

If you ask the schemes about this sort of stuff (I have at Elex) they say its not within their remit to investigate ............... go figure .......... makes you wonder why it worth the hassle.........

 

[Pete999]

If you ask the schemes about this sort of stuff (I have at Elex) they say its not within their remit to investigate ............... go figure .......... makes you wonder why it worth the hassle.........

You could try emailing EMMA CLANCY at certsure, but in hindsight She will do SFA.

 

[Octopus]

You could try emailing EMMA CLANCY at certsure, but in hindsight She will do SFA.

One of my customers had a problem with one of their members ..... all the NICEIC said was get them back ........... which she didn't want to do ........... so she paid me to investigate and passed the NICEIC member my costs and told them to come back .......... which they did, thinking they were going to get the roofing work too (they were general builders) .............. when they finally turned up ......... the roof had been done by others and 2 of them spent 1 day fixing the issue.

funny

and when I was there last week I did test to confirm the issue had been fixed .......... the contractor didn't provide a cert .....

Surely these organisations must read these comments?

 

[Pete999]

One of my customers had a problem with one of their members ..... all the NICEIC said was get them back ........... which she didn't want to do ........... so she paid me to investigate and passed the NICEIC member my costs and told them to come back .......... which they did, thinking they were going to get the roofing work too (they were general builders) .............. when they finally turned up ......... the roof had been done by others and 2 of them spent 1 day fixing the issue.

funny

and when I was there last week I did test to confirm the issue had been fixed .......... the contractor didn't provide a cert .....

Surely these organisations must read these comments?

They have thick skins Mate, thick skins and big wallets, they don't care about anything but making Money, despite what was said at the Big Committee meeting held a few years back, it's a business not a service, and what do businesses thrive on? Profit (Money), sorry to go on (probably get some "old" icons, but this isn't a new thing is it?

 

[Pete999]

One of my customers had a problem with one of their members ..... all the NICEIC said was get them back ........... which she didn't want to do ........... so she paid me to investigate and passed the NICEIC member my costs and told them to come back .......... which they did, thinking they were going to get the roofing work too (they were general builders) .............. when they finally turned up ......... the roof had been done by others and 2 of them spent 1 day fixing the issue.

funny

and when I was there last week I did test to confirm the issue had been fixed .......... the contractor didn't provide a cert .....

Surely these organisations must read these comments?

They have thick skins Mate, thick skins and big wallets, they don't care about anything but making Money, despite what was said at the Big Committee meeting held a few years back, it's a business not a service, and what do businesses thrive on? Profit (Money), sorry to go on (probably get some "old" icons, but this isn't a new thing is it? gather lots of evidence and send it to the Chair of that Committee meeting, can't recall his name, but someone will know, failing that send the evidence to you Local MP recorded delivery of course.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Sad really, especially when people are told "ensure you get a registered electrician..." but half of us 'registered' electricians are w@nk. Private companies are ALWAYS for profit. Don't believe otherwise.

 

[DPG]

If I was in charge of the NIC (or any other schemes ), I would want to keep an eye on the main forums to get a feel for what is happening out there in the field and what people's experience's are.

 

[Midwest]

Someone posted about Napits recent proposal, which sounded relatively reasonable, apart it being restricted to registered business.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents...t-P-and-the-Independent-Review-20-June-18.pdf

And being a member of a scheme of course.

 

[markythesparky]

Someone posted about Napits recent proposal, which sounded relatively reasonable, apart it being restricted to registered business.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents...t-P-and-the-Independent-Review-20-June-18.pdf

And being a member of a scheme of course.

That’s not a bad start. I would go further though.

The five week wonder schemes for Part P should be banned, full stop!

This is because a requirement for entitlement into a scheme to enable someone to self certify their electrical work should be that you are a qualified electrician to start with!!!!!

Just because you have a regs course doesn’t mean you are capable of safely wiring a kitchen (where most of the electrical load is) or a bathroom where a lot of the danger is, or a garden where a lot of people get hurt. If this were the case, what is the point of the three years or more that we as qualified professional electricians did?

There should be much much more of a recognition of the C&G or NVQ qualifications that one does to become a qualified electrician and this should be taken into account when applying for the self cert schemes, and any other scheme including the ECS.

The ECS is another bloody joke. They don’t even recognise a C&G now and yet they are giving gold cards to guys who have only just qualified with an NVQ and no site experience. Most wouldn’t even know where to put their name in an EIC or EICR. The excuse is that the C&G is not now current qualification for being an electrician! Go figure!?

Another big question is that why does Part P only apply to domestic properties????
If it’s needed at all (which I don’t believe it is as we have enough legislation in exams and qualifications anyway) it should be applied across the board. Electrical is electrical is electrical!
Why is there a distinction between domestic and any other kind of electrical work at all? If installed incorrectly it kills, end of!

In my opinion Part P is a sticking plaster that was made of tissue, didn’t really have any adhesive and is now beginning to peal off. All qualified sparks have one thing in common; we are all qualified! We did the appropriate qualifications to become professional electricians.
Surely these qualifications alone should be the absolute basis, starting point or foundation for any Part P or similar scheme!

We, as qualified electricians, have spent three or more years training for this trade, only to be upstaged or downgraded by someone who has none of the necessary qualifications but who has done a five week course. They are then admitted into a self cert body and are not even qualified electricians. They can then install electrical equipment and circuits, certify and even sign off the work under law as being safe!!!!!

This is a crazy situation and needs to be changed immediately.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

I had a harder time getting into Screwfix's Plumber's and Electrician's side room than I did getting into the NIC

 

[markythesparky]

If I was in charge of the NIC (or any other schemes ), I would want to keep an eye on the main forums to get a feel for what is happening out there in the field and what people's experience's are.

I believe some of the inspectors do. Unfortunately it's not the top brass.

 

[Octopus]

I believe some of the inspectors do. Unfortunately it's not the top brass.

The top brass will be well aware of these forums ... and our views ....... but we will be dismissed as being irrelevant ....

 

[markythesparky]

Irrelevant until the next annual payment is due!

 

[Toneyz]

The idea also was supposed to control the work of kitchen and bathroom fitters. They do the Electrical Trainee or whatever the course is called and then suddenly Kevin is an electrician changing consumer units etc whereas once he was doing small alterations. For them should have been graded limited scope.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Haha, I see nothing has changed in this area since I was last a regular on here a few years back.
What's his name has retired though(?), be thankful for small mercies

 

[Octopus]

The idea also was supposed to control the work of kitchen and bathroom fitters. They do the Electrical Trainee or whatever the course is called and then suddenly Kevin is an electrician changing consumer units etc whereas once he was doing small alterations. For them should have been graded limited scope.

I have never understood why kitchens were removed from part p - kitchen fitters are some of the worse offenders for ignoring BS 7671 imho

 

[Toneyz]

Haha, I see nothing has changed in this area since I was last a regular on here a few years back.
What's his name has retired though(?), be thankful for small mercies

Who is that then?

 

[Anthony S]

Keep away from domestic works, its a waste of time and anyone can have a go at it. Its saturated with chancer's who can't get into commercial and industrial.

 

[SparkyAndGeorge]

They have thick skins Mate, thick skins and big wallets, they don't care about anything but making Money, despite what was said at the Big Committee meeting held a few years back, it's a business not a service, and what do businesses thrive on? Profit (Money), sorry to go on (probably get some "old" icons, but this isn't a new thing is it? gather lots of evidence and send it to the Chair of that Committee meeting, can't recall his name, but someone will know, failing that send the evidence to you Local MP recorded delivery of course.

The chair of that committee was Clive Betts MP.

 

[Pete999]

The chair of that committee was Clive Betts MP.

That's him, thanks Mate

 

[tudore]

No may be about it


This is a common mistake ....

With regards to the RCD being used for overcurrent protection, it would be interesting to get the culprit's opinion on what an RCBO is and does.

 

[markythesparky]

With regards to the RCD being used for overcurrent protection, it would be interesting to get the culprit's opinion on what an RCBO is and does.

We’re waiting for him to ‘look into it’ and come back to the client but that was nearly a week ago now and I’m not holding my breathe. In any case he hardly speaks any English apparently so his we may need an interpreter for his opinion.

 

[markythesparky]

Quick update: we've been back after the client wanted a couple of other things checked . Turns out the guy has run a 4mm or 6mm SWA to a 1 gang flush box. From here he's taken two 2.5mm twin and earths for a RFC and connector blocked these to the SWA.

This chap is a class act!