Should this fitting be bonded to earth

[P1wack]

I have had these lights installed by a contractor whose work is normally very good. He has not connected the earth in each fitting as there is a class 2 sticker on the metal back plate. He argues that it does not need to be earthed. The manufacture did not supply a bolt for the Earth terminal (however an M4 fits) because then they would not comply with the Class 2 requirements but have stated it can be used if required/requested. Each fitting is supplied via a Clik rose internally.

My argument is it should be earthed!

Please look past the cable entry. It has been rectified and I’m aware that the correct cable entry has not been used and the water integrity of the fitting is compromised. This has voided the warranty also.

Please advise

 

[westward10]

Is that base metal?

 

[plugsandsparks]

Probably a fitting where the base has dual use in Class 1 or 2 situations. I probably would have used the screw to provide a home for the earth wire, rather than waste a Wago. Either way its no big deal

 

[westward10]

That is rough where it enters the fitting why are the conductors exposed like that. If that is a metal base and the earth post suggests it should be earthed and as such I find it difficult to believe that satisfies Class II requirements.

 

[P1wack]

I have had these lights installed by a contractor whose work is normally very good. He has not connected the earth in each fitting as there is a class 2 sticker on the metal back plate. He argues that it does not need to be earthed. The manufacture did not supply a bolt for the Earth terminal (however an M4 fits) because then they would not comply with the Class 2 requirements but have stated it can be used if required/requested. Each fitting is supplied via a Clik rose internally.

My argument is it should be earthed!

Please look past the cable entry. It has been rectified and I’m aware that the correct cable entry has not been used and the water integrity of the fitting is compromised. This has voided the warranty also.

Please advise

Is that base metal?

Yeah

 

[P1wack]

Probably a fitting where the base has dual use in Class 1 or 2 situations. I probably would have used the screw to provide a home for the earth wire, rather than waste a Wago. Either way its no big deal

No big deal apart from I have a couple filling up with water. And cables pinched where coming through the wall and back plate. In the picture the cable was pinched and I pulled it to see how pinched it was and the sleeve pulled apart exposing the cores.

 

[westward10]

As far as I am concerned that requires an earth I see no possibility of that being Class II especially the way that cable has been entered leaving basic insulated conductors exposed to the metalwork.

 

[P1wack]

As far as I am concerned that requires an earth I see no possibility of that being Class II especially the way that cable has been entered leaving basic insulated conductors exposed to the metalwork.

 

[westward10]

I find it difficult to believe that satisfies Class II. I suspect that piece of insulation below the terminal block is supposed to provide a barrier. The reason for not earthing it because of a plastic gear tray is bizarre. I would have personally sent them back for alternatives.

 

[P1wack]

I find it difficult to believe that satisfies Class II. I suspect that piece of insulation below the terminal block is supposed to provide a barrier. The reason for not earthing it because of a plastic gear tray is bizarre. I would have personally sent them back for alternatives.

Yes, you’re correct, they say the insulating paper provides a barrier. The gear tray is metal also.but only part attached to plastic.

The body of the fitting has so much exposed metal. It should be bonded.

 

[P1wack]

I find it difficult to believe that satisfies Class II. I suspect that piece of insulation below the terminal block is supposed to provide a barrier. The reason for not earthing it because of a plastic gear tray is bizarre. I would have personally sent them back for alternatives.

No mention on here of a class 2

 

[westward10]

That data sheet suggests it should be earthed.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Poor manufacturer........ feel sorry for them. They have a datasheet stating Class 1 and a product label showing Class 2. The driver label is not shown but assume that also shows a class 2 label. As mentioned i would have probably connected the earth to the post provided as you have to put the earth somewhere, lol
Either way, i would not be hard on the electrician (not this bit anyway) the IP integrity is something else, along with trapped cables. You could always drill a drainhole in the bottom of the fitting, its amazing how effective a drain hole is.
What outcome are you wanting ?

 

[P1wack]

Poor manufacturer........ feel sorry for them. They have a datasheet stating Class 1 and a product label showing Class 2. The driver label is not shown but assume that also shows a class 2 label. As mentioned i would have probably connected the earth to the post provided as you have to put the earth somewhere, lol
Either way, i would not be hard on the electrician (not this bit anyway) the IP integrity is something else, along with trapped cables. You could always drill a drainhole in the bottom of the fitting, its amazing how effective a drain hole is.
What outcome are you wanting ?

I have asked the contractor to come back, remove the fittings. Big circle seal of mastic behind cable entry, refit and connect the earth to the provided terminal. He is refusing. I have to warranty a large number of these for 2 years, with no manufacture warranty. In 1 month 3no have failed and as a minimum I would like to reduce the chance of failure. In the process I’d like them earthed. This is in a kids school. Care takers/maintance engineers and cleaners could potentially touch or inspect failures. I don’t want these to be a reflection of our workmanship or keep paying to rectify. And obviously don’t want anyone to get a belt.

I’ve paid them for the work but still owe a little for other jobs. I’ve only asked if I have it sorted (1man, 1 day max) and I’ll hold the risk and he covers the rectifying costs.

If he does come and do the mastic he is refusing to earth them. So I have kind of feel like I’m holding a too bigger risk.

I think they should be earthed. Even if installed correctly.

 

[littlespark]

Look at anything else designed as class II or double insulated, and you’ll see the terminals are enclosed within a plastic box, and restrained.

It’s basically what the square within a square symbol signifies.

if a core comes out of the terminal, it can only touch plastic…. Even if the body of the fitting is metal.


Admittedly, some of the little plastic boxes that come supplied with certain decorative fittings leave a lot to be desired…. But the thought was there.


How does kingfisher customer service, who sent the email, explain the data sheet? They are contradictory.

 

[mainline]

I have asked the contractor to come back, remove the fittings. Big circle seal of mastic behind cable entry, refit and connect the earth to the provided terminal. He is refusing. I have to warranty a large number of these for 2 years, with no manufacture warranty. In 1 month 3no have failed and as a minimum I would like to reduce the chance of failure. In the process I’d like them earthed. This is in a kids school. Care takers/maintance engineers and cleaners could potentially touch or inspect failures. I don’t want these to be a reflection of our workmanship or keep paying to rectify. And obviously don’t want anyone to get a belt.

I’ve paid them for the work but still owe a little for other jobs. I’ve only asked if I have it sorted (1man, 1 day max) and I’ll hold the risk and he covers the rectifying costs.

If he does come and do the mastic he is refusing to earth them. So I have kind of feel like I’m holding a too bigger risk.

I think they should be earthed. Even if installed correctly.

I would dump the lights along with the contractor.

 

[James]

This is a right sheet show.

if the lights are marked as class 2 then they don't require an earth.
if the guy installing them thinks they don't comply with class2 requirements (as marked), they should not fit them.

mastic is not likely to provide a suitable IP rating for the enclosure, a suitable gland and seal would be required.

any outdoor light like that will end up leaking eventually and a small hole in the bottom will stop it filling up with water.

If I employ a subcontractor to do installation work for me, then the brief is clear.
Do it my way or walk away, the chance to voice opinions or change how it is done is when discussing the upcoming job, not afterwards.

 

[mainline]

I have asked the contractor to come back, remove the fittings. Big circle seal of mastic behind cable entry, refit and connect the earth to the provided terminal. He is refusing. I have to warranty a large number of these for 2 years, with no manufacture warranty. In 1 month 3no have failed and as a minimum I would like to reduce the chance of failure. In the process I’d like them earthed. This is in a kids school. Care takers/maintance engineers and cleaners could potentially touch or inspect failures. I don’t want these to be a reflection of our workmanship or keep paying to rectify. And obviously don’t want anyone to get a belt.

I’ve paid them for the work but still owe a little for other jobs. I’ve only asked if I have it sorted (1man, 1 day max) and I’ll hold the risk and he covers the rectifying costs.

If he does come and do the mastic he is refusing to earth them. So I have kind of feel like I’m holding a too bigger risk.

I think they should be earthed. Even if installed correctly.

Does the supply have rcd protection.

 

[P1wack]

This is a right sheet show.

if the lights are marked as class 2 then they don't require an earth.
if the guy installing them thinks they don't comply with class2 requirements (as marked), they should not fit them.

mastic is not likely to provide a suitable IP rating for the enclosure, a suitable gland and seal would be required.

any outdoor light like that will end up leaking eventually and a small hole in the bottom will stop it filling up with water.

If I employ a subcontractor to do installation work for me, then the brief is clear.
Do it my way or walk away, the chance to voice opinions or change how it is done is when discussing the upcoming job, not

Does the supply have rcd protection.

This is a right sheet show.

if the lights are marked as class 2 then they don't require an earth.
if the guy installing them thinks they don't comply with class2 requirements (as marked), they should not fit them.

mastic is not likely to provide a suitable IP rating for the enclosure, a suitable gland and seal would be required.

any outdoor light like that will end up leaking eventually and a small hole in the bottom will stop it filling up with water.

If I employ a subcontractor to do installation work for me, then the brief is clear.
Do it my way or walk away, the chance to voice opinions or change how it is done is when discussing the upcoming job, not afterwards.

I opened a fitting up due to a fault. Turned out water ingress. If you look at the picture of the back plate it’s got two sections to drill a drain hole. I’m going to drill a drain hole. I’m also going to mastic. Like I said. Just to reduce my risk. Obviously all fittings or accessories have to be installed to manufactures guidelines. These have been modified. Holes have been made in the fitting where they shouldn’t . The lights were tech subbed as per the data sheet. We can’t be on-site to supervise every installed accessory or fitting.

 

[P1wack]

Does the supply have rcd protection.

Yes

 

[P1wack]

Data sheet says Earth is required. Sticker says class 2. Wasn’t clear if the sticker was referring to the gear tray. Now we know.

Surely any competent spark would just earth the back plate! (And install correctly)

 

[P1wack]

Look at anything else designed as class II or double insulated, and you’ll see the terminals are enclosed within a plastic box, and restrained.

It’s basically what the square within a square symbol signifies.

if a core comes out of the terminal, it can only touch plastic…. Even if the body of the fitting is metal.


Admittedly, some of the little plastic boxes that come supplied with certain decorative fittings leave a lot to be desired…. But the thought was there.


How does kingfisher customer service, who sent the email, explain the data sheet? They are contradictory.

See response. Manufacturer is a ---- show

 

[freddo]

I really don't like the single insulating coming into the fitting, through a bare metal hole, on an un-earthed metal enclosure. Are there connector blocks behind the fitting or something to join the flex to the building wiring?

 

[P1wack]

I really don't like the single insulating coming into the fitting, through a bare metal hole, on an un-earthed metal enclosure. Are there connector blocks behind the fitting or something to join the flex to the building wiring?

The single cores are where the cable was pinched. It’s now been rectified. But no the fittings massive metal body doesn’t need to be earthed. Because it’s a class 2 fitting. I would earth it anyway regardless of what the manufacture said

 

[JM1TTY]

100% should be bonded. Next to the earth symbol there is a small elevated hole which should either have came with a screw to screw into this or if it didn't he should have used a self tapper in this and a crimp on the earth is what i would have done. Also whys the light fitting got a level build into it if its a circle? which also isn't level Does it have a decretive faceplate that should be level?

 

[westward10]

100% should be bonded. Next to the earth symbol there is a small elevated hole which should either have came with a screw to screw into this or if it didn't he should have used a self tapper in this crimp on the earth is what i would have done. Also whys the light fitting got a level build into it if its a circle? which also isn't level Does it have a decretive faceplate that should be level?

It is an "eyelid" diffuser so it needs to be level.

 

[P1wack]

100% should be bonded. Next to the earth symbol there is a small elevated hole which should either have came with a screw to screw into this or if it didn't he should have used a self tapper in this and a crimp on the earth is what i would have done. Also whys the light fitting got a level build into it if it’s a circle? which also isn't level Does it have a decretive faceplate that should be level?

Kingfisher said they can’t supply a screw the. It wouldn’t be classed as a class 2 product. An M4 fits and is being used going forward

 

[JM1TTY]

Kingfisher said they can’t supply a screw the. It wouldn’t be classed as a class 2 product. An M4 fits and is being used going forward

Thats good im surprised the electrician didn't attempt to bond it himself though it's ridiculous. That's the problem with lights from IKEA these days etc they give you a light fitting that doesn't require an earth cause they class it as a certain class then give you the smallest connector block in the world with a rubber shroud round the cables going to the fixture. If you've got more than one cable at your light which also is higher than 1mm to make it even worse a light that should take 5 minutes turns into 45 minutes.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I am trying to understand the manufacturers position. They must know electricians dont really want to run a supply to a lamp without an earth as this will cause issues down the line. So an earth needs to go somewhere. The electrician used a wago and TBH it is one way of doing it, so as to satisfy the requirement to have an earth available should the fitting be replaced with a class 1. I personally don't see what issue would arise if the earth post is used. In some ways its a lucky find because most class 2 light fitting dont have a recognisable method to deal with the earth supply cable, hence they either end up in a blind choc block or a wago.

 

[P1wack]

Thats good im surprised the electrician didn't attempt to bond it himself though it's ridiculous. That's the problem with lights from IKEA these days etc they give you a light fitting that doesn't require an earth cause they class it as a certain class then give you the smallest connector block in the world with a rubber shroud round the cables going to the fixture. If you've got more than one cable at your light which also is higher than 1mm to make it even worse a light that should take 5 minutes turns into 45 minutes.

I am trying to understand the manufacturers position. They must know electricians dont really want to run a supply to a lamp without an earth as this will cause issues down the line. So an earth needs to go somewhere. The electrician used a wago and TBH it is one way of doing it, so as to satisfy the requirement to have an earth available should the fitting be replaced with a class 1. I personally don't see what issue would arise if the earth post is used. In some ways it’s a lucky find because most class 2 light fitting dont have a recognisable method to deal with the earth supply cable, hence they either end up in a blind choc block or a wago.

Might as well put it on the body right? The provided post. Just to be safe! No brainer

 

[westward10]

I am trying to understand the manufacturers position. They must know electricians dont really want to run a supply to a lamp without an earth as this will cause issues down the line. So an earth needs to go somewhere. The electrician used a wago and TBH it is one way of doing it, so as to satisfy the requirement to have an earth available should the fitting be replaced with a class 1. I personally don't see what issue would arise if the earth post is used. In some ways its a lucky find because most class 2 light fitting dont have a recognisable method to deal with the earth supply cable, hence they either end up in a blind choc block or a wago.

I agree but it is a leap of faith to think that is a Class II fitting, the earth terminal sort of gives it away.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I dont know, we have the manufacturer saying its a Class 2 fitting, we have a label stuck to the base showing a class 2 fitting, i have not seen the driver but that too is "likely" to show a class 2 device, it may even say class 2 on the box the lamp came in. The only evidence it may be a class 1 is a post and a casting impression of an earth symbol. My head is saying is "probably" a class 2. So i can understand the original electricians position, thats all i am saying, the rest of the install is not fit for purpose for sure.

 

[JM1TTY]

I dont know, we have the manufacturer saying its a Class 2 fitting, we have a label stuck to the base showing a class 2 fitting, i have not seen the driver but that too is "likely" to show a class 2 device, it may even say class 2 on the box the lamp came in. The only evidence it may be a class 1 is a post and a casting impression of an earth symbol. My head is saying is "probably" a class 2. So i can understand the original electricians position, thats all i am saying, the rest of the install is not fit for purpose for sure.

Either way taking everything into account the spark fitting it should have seen a metal enclosure, fitted a grommet and also attempted to attach the earth to the enclosure to ensure bonding to cover himself and others. Im actually surprised hes used washers on his fixings he clearly thought about his install to some degree..

 

[baldelectrician]

I have asked the contractor to come back, remove the fittings. Big circle seal of mastic behind cable entry, refit and connect the earth to the provided terminal. He is refusing. I have to warranty a large number of these for 2 years, with no manufacture warranty. In 1 month 3no have failed and as a minimum I would like to reduce the chance of failure. In the process I’d like them earthed. This is in a kids school. Care takers/maintance engineers and cleaners could potentially touch or inspect failures. I don’t want these to be a reflection of our workmanship or keep paying to rectify. And obviously don’t want anyone to get a belt.

I’ve paid them for the work but still owe a little for other jobs. I’ve only asked if I have it sorted (1man, 1 day max) and I’ll hold the risk and he covers the rectifying costs.

If he does come and do the mastic he is refusing to earth them. So I have kind of feel like I’m holding a too bigger risk.

I think they should be earthed. Even if installed correctly.

Who specified / supplied the lights?

The regs state you have to follow manufacturer instructions- and the light states class II

Kingfisher is part of B&Q / Screwfix - did someone look at Screwfix and think they were a good idea?

 

[nicebutdim]

Kingfisher group own screwfix and b&q.

I don't think kingfisher lighting are in any way associated.

 

[littlespark]

The only evidence it may be a class 1 is a post and a casting impression of an earth symbol.

And the data sheet from the manufacturer that contradicts their own MI.


If the spark sat down and had a think, he would realise what needs done. Seems to just want to argue…. But on the other hand, does he get paid for a return visit to put it right?

 

[DPG]

The whole light assembly is not class II. The manufacturer has got confused because they have used a class II driver module, but then fitted it into a non class II metal fitting.

Note that equipment with metal enclosures can still be class II, but they need to comply with the requirements for double insulation (or 'reinforced' insulation in lieue of this). The fitting the OP has does not comply with either.

I've seen this with a lot of fittings over recent years, mainly cheapo brand ones but not always.

There is sometimes no way you can fit it and comply with class II requirements AND manufacturer's instructions. I personally would earth the fitting using the stud as other people have already mentioned.

 

[plugsandsparks]

The manufacturer has stuck a label on the baseplate, its clear to see. I don't know what instructions came with the fitting or what was written on the outside of the box it came in. Regardless of the stud, i would have considered it a class 2 fitting. Yes, i know i have said i would have used the stud anyway but that would not have been my major concern about earthing just somewhere to put the earth cable for later use of a class 1 fitting. I would not be, on-site, with the fitting in my hand considering ringing Kingfisher, downloading their datasheets and generally having a debate about it. I am thinking of the OP here and the decision by the electrician to connect it the way he has , which, if it had been my own property, i would not be getting excited at all. IP integrity is a totally different issue, and i would have said to the electrician "seriously ??" lol