Advice on safety of new Consumer Unit Install

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minorcamount

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Hi all, new to posting but been reading for years.

I inherited a house from my grandmother who passed in 2021, I intend to renovate and rent out, step by step, job by job as money allows.

Getting the property ready to rent has uncovered a fair few jobs needed to bring it out of the 1970's

I knew the electrics needed sorting so found an electrician via Check-a-trade website. He inspected wiring and said I just need an upgrade to the consumer unit. old system was 2 old bakalite cu's on day night mode I think it was called (2 different tariffs for day and night)

So he quoted and installed a single consumer unit dual rcds. 5 original circuits but I told him to disregard the shower as I would be installing a mixer tap shower .

Circuits now are, Cooker, Lights up & Lights Down on same breaker, Sockets Up and Sockets Down on separate breakers (He said their all radial circuits)

Now here comes the question as I don't think its safe.

He has installed the new consumer unit half on and half off the wooden board that the meter and main fuse are on.

Used 1 screw to fix it, the half of the consumer unit hanging off the wooden backing board there is a 30 to 35mm gap behind to the wall.

There is one screw in the bottom left into the board (I know, I took the cover off (I did safely isolate)) The CU is so unstable and wobbly.

He has had to move the CU approx 10 inch down and 14 inch to the right, so he has joined the wires above the ceiling to extend them by using junction boxes (Old bakalite types, so they must have already been there) They are free hanging between the joists under the bedroom floorboards which is just above the CU on the kitchen wall.

CU is installed at top of kitchen wall (2200mm from floor level, approx) so not accessible for kids to pull off wall or anything but it is still very loose.

There is no strip around the rear entry knockout and no fire barrier, just a large knockout with the several wires coming in.

Is this right? Safe? I need a EICR before I rent, will this even pass with those issues?

I can take photos and post them if you can't quite get what I mean.

Thanks in advance, I just want to be prepared in what I say when (if i should) call him back in to put it right.

Now, maybe the thing that should have rang alarm bells is he charged £250, is that too cheap?, I have had a glance on line and seen its usually £400 upwards.

I did as mentioned get him through check-a-trade so thought he would be reputable and everything, ultimately I want to know where I stand before contacting them and him.

thanks for the patience in reading this long winded post.

David
 
Electro-tech said:
Can you please post pictures & have you mentioned your concerns to the electrician ? What accreditation scheme is he with NICIEC or NAPIT etc? Any Certification documents?
Click to expand...

Not contacted him yet, I wanted to get as much info as possible to back myself up when speaking to him.

I will check which accreditation's he has and report back, I will also post pics later this afternoon when I visit the property and take some.

Thanks
 
What certificates did you get for this CU replacement?

Free hanging JBs with no strain relief do not meet regulations.
 
Attached some photos, forgot to take image of Certificate, I will do that tomorrow.
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That looks like an orgy in a snake pit.

It should be securely fitted to the wall so if it is going to stay where it is then a couple of wooden battens behind it and add some extra screws.

there should be some cover that goes over the shiny copper at the bottom of the board so you cant touch it when the cover is off.
BEWARE the shiny copper bits are LIVE.

all in all at £250 I think you were overcharged.
It is not the worst job i have seen but it is pretty dam poor workmanship in my opinion.
 
Lazy, lazy and rough as dog rubbish install.

I could do better after 8 pints of Old Rosie.

He could have mounted it to the right of that wooden board and secured it properly, renewed the tails, and brought the cables in through the top knockouts using correct glanding.

BG screwfix special 🤮🤮🤮
 
Quite apart from the rough install,
(a) I'd always install a board with at least a couple of spare ways for future use
(b) nowadays I'd install an all-RCBO board, so one circuit tripping the RCD doesn't disconnect other circuits
But I guess at such a 'cheap' price, this is what you'd expect.

Edit: just remembered the shower circuit is not used, so I guess there is one spare way.
 
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It's definitely not a neat install or one done with good workmanship, but I'd say it would be unusual to get that for £250.

The board is a Screwfix special, but he did splash out and fit Type A RCDs, so 69.99, instead of the £49.99 option. He also used a gland for the meter tails, so he is already some way ahead of the average DIY board changer.

It should definitely be secured more firmly - with battens between it and the wall where it overhangs, and the wires to the top of the MCBs should really be better installed, with no copper on show - but then the BG supplied cables fail on that basis too!

There should also be a plastic cover sitting in front of the bus bars, so that even removing the front cover does not expose lots of live copper...

Other than that I'm not actually seeing anything that would count as unsafe. You mentioned the extended cables, but there's no picture of that so tough to make comment.

Check online with NAPIT if you haven't already that he is actually registered, as it's been known for people to claim membership of a scheme when they aren't.

If he is a NAPIT member, then that will give you some comeback should there be a problem. Check that he will be providing a Part P certificate, as well as an Electrical installation Certificate.

If you get those, then there is probably not much to be concerned about. I would not use him for the EICR though, as that will give you an independent and more thorough inspection that what he has done is at least safe.
 
Thanks to all that have replied, I have checked Napit site, he is on there as Domestic Installer EAS/CPS. I will take more photos under the floorboards just above the CU in the bedroom floorspace where the JBs are, and upload the certificate he gave me.

Apart from that, and pending all of the good folks advice on here regarding the JBs, should I be at least be asking him to come back and secure the CU better by putting some battens under the overhang side?


Regards

Dave
 
Dual RCD board for 4 circuits? Why oh why?

Pictures of the junction boxes could be interesting...is this a bungalow or where the void above is usually accessible?
 
UNG said:
So who took the decision on it being a TNC-S supply
Click to expand...

Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU
IMG-1361.jpg


On another note regards the loop, have a look at these pictures and see how dangerous this looks to you

IMG-1370.jpg
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My grandmother had storage heaters and no gas supply, so I think she had different peak tariffs for the storage heaters to heat-up at night. I know have gas line installed and central heating system installed
 
Is that overhead supply? Looks like it was TT and the installer converted it to TN-C-S perhaps without DNO approval. Another point to raise with the DNO, not so much to catch out the guy but to ensure regularisation of conversion as some areas cannot/will not convert. I see the seals have been removed so looks like a bit of a chancer on the job. Exposed copper at the terminals and can't wait to see the JBs' if the terminations in the JB echo the CU well I think it would profit from an inspection and perhaps remedy. I wonder what the test results were??? In any event looking at the supply wire, if indeed they are in use, the "electrician" should not even have started work without getting the DNO in first so that is a bit worrying.
 
minorcamount said:
Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU
View attachment 98921
Click to expand...
The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod
Looking at some of the other pictures (no insulation on external supply conductors) it clearly indicates that no contact has been made with the DNO by the contractor so it looks like the contractor has taken the creative decision to make the supply TNC-S when this may not be available on the existing supply
I think the contractor needs to answer some questions on this one and it also needs the DNO to be involved before someone is seriously injured
I would also be contacting NAPIT and Check a Trade as it is time these schemes stepped upto the plate and took action against the rogues they approve
 
UNG said:
The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod
Click to expand...
No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.
 
This has been a most interesting thread to read.
pc1966 said:
Maybe someone remembered when that [water pipe as legitimate earth] became a no-no in the reg?
Click to expand...
I asked this a while ago on here, and I was told somewhere between 1940 and 1950.

The original concerns in this thread are relatively minor compared the to state of the incoming supply and the very naughty TN conversion (presumably without permission). Main thing is to call the DNO and it should be a high priority job.
 
Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.
 
minorcamount said:
Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.
Click to expand...

Definitely interested in some photos of the new install!

As others have said, it appears that the consumer unit is not the main issue here.

It's likely if they have put a new install in that it is PME capable (which means that an earth could be run as it has been). However, the key is that ONLY the DNO can decide and do that.

It is probably a good idea to contact them again and explain and ask for an earth safety check. They may be able to confirm that the earth is acceptable as it is, and will do it correctly with their labels and an earth terminal.

There are ways to test whether PME is possible/effective, and the electrician may have done that, but it's still not within his remit to decide to change it.

That doesn't make what is in place now unsafe necessarily - though the readings on the certificate will be helpful in deciding that.

It appears that you've been let down by two electricians here.

The first one who did the boiler should have either contacted the DNO themselves or got you to do it, and had them in to see if they could upgrade the earth - at that point I expect they would have noticed the outside cabling and arranged for it to be changed.

The water bonding was necessary as well, so not a waste that he did it, just that it was not an acceptable alternative to a proper main earth. Do you know the if gas has been bonded now too?

The second electrician should not have done anything with the outside cable in that state - they should have called the DNO themselves as an emergency job and waited for it to be fixed before proceeding. They should absolutely not (if they did) have connected the earth up as they did, even if tests suggested that the install was PME.

Now that the new supply is installed, the good news is that it is probably not a huge amount of work to get things into an entirely satisfactory state. It seems like what you need is a competent electrician to oversee ensuring everything is as it should be - and maybe the one who does the EICR could be that.

I would find a few from the NAPIT or NICEIC site that are rated to do EICRs, and contact them for a discussion/quote, but explain the situation. You sound like you have a good enough grasp of the issues now to be able to spot those who do not give good clear answers as to how they would proceed.

Sadly as you've found, ensuring they have membership is not the guarantee it should be.

Not sure if any of the forum members are close to Bradford and willing to assist, or can recommend someone who is reliable and competent.

It may also be worth contacting NAPIT, I am told they have a rather better approach to maintaining their standards than some, so they may be able to assist. Usually, they ask that you go through a complaints procedure with the electrician first, but in this case, if you show them the pictures (or direct them to this post), they may be willing to take a more proactive approach. If I was a NAPIT member, I might even raise it myself with them as a poor example of the "brand" that I was paying for the privilege of representing.

In terms of price for an EICR, it's not always a good guide - You should be able to get a perfectly good EICR for less than £200. I would avoid national firms who specialise in EICRs as they have a habit of fitting in as many in a day as they could and barely scraping the surface.
 
pc1966 said:
No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.
Click to expand...
Hello pc1966.

A metal water pipe was commonly used as the earth with no VOELCB in domestic urban and rural installations until the 14th Edition, 1966. I would guess this was originally one such installation. I would think it should be TT now, but would check with the DNO first.

Regards,

Colin Jenkins.
 
No Surge or Arc offered

Update to some photos here and the paper work he gave me which says it’s an EICR report strangely. So has he done an EICR as well as the CU install

Also a picture of how he left the gas bonding which was behind the kitchen unit, after I pulled the old kitchen out this is what was left

I did find an old bond on the water so the pipe was previously bonded unlike what I thought when I said it was not

Also the photo of the incoming supply after dno changed it in 2 hrs from call which was fast repair, but then again it was really bad and dangerous
B4978D1D-8E79-4883-A910-25D31D81AE0F.jpegD62C7248-798F-4AE7-A837-42559DE0E6FA.jpeg378A7D37-5566-4491-BF2F-829ADBF19A0D.jpeg55BAD1DD-5F34-427A-B650-F5381FABCDB7.jpegCD73B142-A864-4936-BD65-344CE10A37ED.jpegDF2B158B-B3AC-47A6-B872-A5F49F7A273C.jpeg9FBED43F-93B8-44FB-9FA5-41FF195397C2.jpeg245621BD-DAB7-4A39-9373-9EBC96EF5AAC.jpegEDE7E88D-4982-48C3-9FAF-8276D9C7EA8E.jpeg5A11F6E3-4F82-4710-BB43-54A6746AC02D.jpeg6652FC13-C938-4DA5-A4B5-9ED569F71134.jpeg
 
minorcamount said:
So I should be contacting him and asking for those 2 certificates?
Click to expand...
Every new bit of info is a real twist in this saga!

What you have there in theory is a satisfactory EICR, which is what you legally need to rent - and which would normally be charged extra.

It's severely lacking in places, and is printed on the most basic of certificates, but I've seen worse on more professional looking certificates too!

There are noticeable errors or ommisions: Bonding to gas and water doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on it, and some of the values on the test sheet are questionable (1000V IR tests?!).

He also seems to be suggesting there is a socket circuit, on a 16A MCB, with 1mm twin and earth, which would be concerning if true, but appears to be a certificate error (order of circuits is wrong too)

More importantly, what he should have given you for the consumer unit change is an Electrical installation Certificate - which would look quite similar, but is specifically for new work, and most importantly a Part P notification certificate, to prove that the work has been notified to the Local Building Control, as is required by law.

You can check yourself for NICEIC or ELECSA members - at NICEIC Online Certification - http://www.checkmynotification.com/, but it doesn't appear to cover NAPIT work.

Not only is the notification a legal requirement, it is also important because it is required when selling a house these days, and not having it can cause complications with the legal process or additional costs.

In general, only the person who did the work can make that notification, so I would certainly chase up the electrician to get the EIC and Part P certificates - If he doesn't come forward with them, then definitely contact NAPIT and follow the procedure.

Whether you want to let him loose to try and correct his issues is up to you, but I'd be tempted to get someone else to sort the mess out properly - which would probably include a more thorough and trustworthy EICR.
 
Dartlec said:
Every new bit of info is a real twist in this saga!

What you have there in theory is a satisfactory EICR, which is what you legally need to rent - and which would normally be charged extra.

It's severely lacking in places, and is printed on the most basic of certificates, but I've seen worse on more professional looking certificates too!

There are noticeable errors or ommisions: Bonding to gas and water doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on it, and some of the values on the test sheet are questionable (1000V IR tests?!).

He also seems to be suggesting there is a socket circuit, on a 16A MCB, with 1mm twin and earth, which would be concerning if true, but appears to be a certificate error (order of circuits is wrong too)

More importantly, what he should have given you for the consumer unit change is an Electrical installation Certificate - which would look quite similar, but is specifically for new work, and most importantly a Part P notification certificate, to prove that the work has been notified to the Local Building Control, as is required by law.

You can check yourself for NICEIC or ELECSA members - at NICEIC Online Certification - http://www.checkmynotification.com/, but it doesn't appear to cover NAPIT work.

Not only is the notification a legal requirement, it is also important because it is required when selling a house these days, and not having it can cause complications with the legal process or additional costs.

In general, only the person who did the work can make that notification, so I would certainly chase up the electrician to get the EIC and Part P certificates - If he doesn't come forward with them, then definitely contact NAPIT and follow the procedure.

Whether you want to let him loose to try and correct his issues is up to you, but I'd be tempted to get someone else to sort the mess out properly - which would probably include a more thorough and trustworthy EICR.
Click to expand...

Thank you everyone who has chipped in, and thank you dartlec,

I have send an email and text to the electrician re the Part P and EIC and why I have a EICR instead and why he has it down as 1mm T&E on the socket circuit, and the failure to mention the bonding etc etc etc, I will report back on his response if any.

As for getting it all sorted, I don't trust him coming in now and will need to get another spark in. Only issue is, I inherited the house and its stuck in the 80's so am doing as much work on it myself whilst been partially disabled, kitchen rip out, decorating, even going to try my hand at patch plastering (oh dear please cross your fingers for me on that one)

So not a lot of money to go around and will have to wait till I save a little bit more up.

I obviously thought I would leave the dangerous stuff to the correctly qualified people ie Electrical, and central heating install (I managed to get a grant for the central heating install and the NEW connection to the gas network)

I even thought I was doing it right this time instead of putting an on FB or elsewhere for a sparky I thought I would do it properly and go through Check-a-trade thinking surely nothing can go wrong they're on check-a-trade and thats how I contacted them through that.


Whilst typing this, Sorry for long winded replys, the sparky has replied and I quote verbatim ""Yes ur right, send me a snapshot of the certificate I sent you its obvo wrong and do you need a EICR doing?"""" is this the point I insert (..sic)
 
He's put the install as TN-S. TN-S would mean the earth is done through the sheathing of the supply cable. What he's attempted to do with the earth would make it a TNC-S.

That work is absolute cack and you're going to have to pay someone else to put it right. I wouldn't have the same guy back to try and remedy it.
 
swaRRR said:
He's put the install as TN-S. TN-S would mean the earth is done through the sheathing of the supply cable. What he's attempted to do with the earth would make it a TNC-S.

That work is absolute cack and you're going to have to pay someone else to put it right. I wouldn't have the same guy back to try and remedy it.
Click to expand...

Thant's what I am dreading.

I thought I was doing it right going through check-a-trade so I didnt have these issues. Now it might cost more to put it right when I thought I was making it safe originally by getting the old system changed by what I thought was a reputable/accredited electrician.

I might contact check-a-trade with all the evidence from the photos and from what the great folks on this forum have told me as I think they have a scheme to put things right if it goes wrong, but I think they require me to allow the original to attempt to put it right first.
I will feel awkward and embarrased (even though I shouldn't) if he comes back after I have complained, thats why I don't like to complain much. (apart from behind a keyboard ha ha ha)

Before that, I'll try get the floorboards back up this evening or tomorrow and take some pictures of the 'floating' junction boxes, I'll isolate the supply and open the JBs to see what the connection are like and photograph.
 
DPG said:
It's a shame you've been let down like this, it makes the trade look bad. DIY work is often much better than the mess you have there.

Be interesting to see those junction boxes he has done.
Click to expand...

To be honest I couldn’t wait any longer myself so I’ve just nipped round to the house and pulled the floorboards (by hand) as he didn’t re fit them properly and to be honest I didn’t think it could get any worse

He had to extend the cables as they would not reach so everything your about to see is what he has done. They may be the original JBs but he has re used them and, Well. Here you go. Have a look

One of the JBs I couldn’t open because it’s so tort to the ceiling/floor plasterboard that there is no play to twist it enough to open the screw let alone move it. And this is how I found it so nothing secured all floating with bare circuits (al be it a dead old shower 6mm (doesn't look like 10mm, maybe 6mm so probably better i didnt have him re-connect it as it was running an 8.5kw shower). I asked him not to reconnect as we’re removing it for mixer shower off boiler)

I’m pretty upset to be honest. I know it was only £250 but I thought it would be done to at least a basic standard. I could have done that better if I was allowed, I’m not and he is and he has certificates telling people he is allowed to install that and why oh why oh why. Any way. Any Thoughts on the JBs?? (I say sarcastically), He couldn't even put any sleeving on the bare cpc's.

I did safely isolate before opening the JBs

426BC3FC-3FC3-4D69-8FFC-B852EF992C9A.jpeg9BCA2C98-5B95-46BB-8078-113D86DB4EDA.jpegA855C628-E391-458F-8A8A-BA062E8A0BF1.jpegA03DE444-02B6-4A0E-B620-454A8CA3EADD.jpeg1DDC5B2B-0C7C-4677-B63E-A97F11CCBEB6.jpeg1F7BF52B-F5FB-4F0D-A440-18DC18E520AD.jpegFA4DD7EB-DB5C-428B-B4C8-9FDEF5E60ACC.jpeg18485FE6-3947-47EA-BF58-12A3E76278CE.jpegA0BCFBE3-356E-4C0F-A544-4E3915513D53.jpegCED09FC7-58E0-4FAF-B577-F02B8B5BF574.jpeg0FB893A4-33A6-4868-BC4C-C1AD1C5C1EDC.jpegF150D77D-7258-4D9E-ADB6-A130484C1426.jpegE6FFB503-FB53-4470-A880-4B0831B65222.jpeg9F2C68AD-2829-4A91-91C2-392637378497.jpeg91FFB665-F234-4176-9403-CFEA0C5A08B0.jpeg
 
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